There's an interesting post over at John Scalzi's blog, Whatever, regarding whether or not Heinlein's juvenile novels are a good intro to SF for today's teenagers. His opinion: Not so much. (and he specifically DOESN'T say they are bad books -- far from it. just dated.)

Lots of good discussion in the comments.

When I started reading Heinlein's juveniles in the mid-to-late '60s, they were already "dated," insofar as the mannerisms, speech and interactions of the teenage characters were obviously those of earlier generations than my own. What drew me then wasn't that, but their ability to transport me to utterly different worlds and societies. I could identify with Rod Walker, Juan Rico, and Max Jones, although I knew that nothing like what they experienced would ever happen to me.

Kids today, I believe, are just as capable of identifying with Heinlein's juvenile characters. My son, who is now 19, grew up reading Heinlein (with my encouragement of course), as well as Harry Potter and other contemporary fiction. He doesn't think they are "dated," even though he recognizes, as I did 40 years ago, that the speech patterns and mannerisms of the characters were created for an earlier generation by a writer who, by his own admission, was in his prime during the Coolidge Administration. My son, who is completely a child of his generation, attended the Centennial with me and with almost as much enthusiasm, and not just because he saw it as a "bonding" opportunity with the old man. Heinlein's juveniles have a timeless quality quite apart from almost all other contemporary juvenile fiction.

I don't know. Is absolute scientific accuracy and so forth essential to a good story? Of course not, or the sf/f section would fit on an end cap. Is Heinlein's clearly fictional solar system in the same class as Wells or Verne... or that of almost any current writer who doesn't spend 90% of their time on research?

A good story is a good story, no matter how dated or fantastic. I don't think the outdated scientific aspects are as much of a hurdle as, perhaps, the social aspects. Kids whose goals are to strive and succeed against the common odds of poverty, isolation, family obligations and parental control should be just as interesting and relevant as the characters in today's crap YA/teen fiction overwhelmed by the lack of iPods, cel phone privileges, and gas money and the pressures of trashy dress, tattoos and drugs.

The notion of having to make fiction "relevant" to a specific sub-generation has always made me barf. No one who reads the half-baked pap shoveled out the door in quintilogies is going to get a thing from it except eyestrain - Harry Potter included, never mind the Twilight crap.

Yes, Heinlein's juveniles are dated - because we've allowed those staunch principles to lapse in the face of never-ending instant gratification and intellectual slovenliness.

Yes, Heinlein's juveniles are dated - because we've allowed those staunch principles to lapse in the face of never-ending instant gratification and intellectual slovenliness.

A brilliant observation.

I don't think Heinlein's juveniles are dated any more than are Treasure Island (1883), Huckleberry Finn (1885), or Penrod and Sam (1916). Kids who can at least briefly elude the competing attractions that didn't exist when these classic novels were written, are very likely to enjoy them. Same for Heinlein's. All three of the named novels were "dated" when written.

In our day, Jack, sf was a niche that had just barely made it into the libraries in the form of RAH's juveniles, etc. It sounds as if you had no particular sf influence - nor did I - and found Heinlein through sheer chance and lack of good alternative reading.

Today, sf is stamped that in glowing letters, compartmented away from regular fiction, and still offered on a weird rocket-ships-and-BEMs sort of basis in most libraries. So kids are going to be less likely to just trip over Heinlein. The ones who are all esseffy from the surfeit of media sf are going to find his stuff boring and dated.

Which is why Heinlein, at least YA Heinlein, has been draining out of the libraries for the last few decades. That was my argument when The Horsesh*t Society wanted to make a big program out of "getting Heinlein into the libraries." He was there, and ruled in his day. But that day is over for a variety of reasons difficult to get over by just donating books (which will end up on the Friends of the Library sale table for a buck anyway).

I don't think any effort to widely popularize Heinlein will be successful, barring a fluke event based on some widely-known hook like a really successful RAH movie or some historical oddity. It's up to those who understand him to keep up the fight on an individual basis, converting those ready to be converted.

The key word is "popular." No, he's not. If you glance at what's currently popular - and I dare you to - you'll have no doubt about the inverse link between popularity and quality.

Significant? Important? Yes, he is... but so are many authors whose works are, to put it charitably, difficult for modern eyes to track through, the province of those motivated by factors other than pleasurable entertainment. "Yeah, I'm bored... I guess I'll read Moby Dick!" - Riiiiighhht.

Worth every trick in the book to get new readers to just try just one book? You betcha. Carefully chosen, reader by reader, Heinlein has every potential to turn them into a crack (more books) addict.

Okay, a portmanteau of replies:

Suggested reading levels in books are an insult and abomination.

My own father, a Mark Twain enthusiast, had no trouble that I can recall sharing that with me, and it has endured very well. In fact, I just finished rereading The Innocents Abroad.

"Dated science" is an interesting issue. Verne and Wells were to some degree dated when my parents and uncle began reading SF, back in the Dawn. I don't believe teenagers worry about plot summaries before diving into a book; I certainly didn't. Now, if we were seriously considering emigrating to Mars (risky) or Venus (bad idea), we would want current science; but for reading exotic-locale adventure, A. Conan Doyle's The Lost World is better than a travel book.

I think there are a couple of prime forces working against young readers lately:
1. Competition from non-book (and non-magazine) entertainment has increased vastly: television, home videos, computers, portable music, cell phones.
2. The War Against Literacy in the culture and schools continues full blast. Say you want literacy, but give them trash, and watch the results.

And a couple of forces working in favor of young readers:
1. Paperbacks are not bought and read just by grown-ups. To a considerable degree, I suspect this has accomplished an end-run around the guardians of Young-Adult shelves in libraries and bookstores. I'd be curious to see any studies of this.
2. Although on a smaller scale than in previous generations, adults really want to share the culture of reading, and specifically good and important books, with younger people. Literate adults can no longer take it as matter-of-fact that their children also will love reading. So I think increased intensity by would-be sharers partly compensates for the general decline of interest in reading.

FWIW: I have two teen-aged sons who read, the 16 year old moreso than the 13 year old, but they read. The 16 year old reads Heinlein as I started reading it to him when he was about 7 or 8. As I recall, his third grade book report project was on Red Planet while his classmates were doing theirs on the Magic Tree House and Berenstain Bear books. He didn't know they were out dated or that they were "supposed to be good for him," so he enjoyed them. He cracked up at the antics of Willis. I remember reading both boys Puppet Masters and looking up to see both of them with tears streaming down their cheeks when Pirate dies. They were both under 10. Alex, 16, reads Heinlein himself now as well as Spider Robinson, Terry Pratchett, John Varley, and lately Cory Doctorow. We both think Little Brother is one of the best SF books recently published and I've put it on my book list for my accelerated 8th graders.

Speaking of my 8th graders, Tunnel in the Sky is one of the optional books on their summer reading list and has been for at least ten years. In every class, there's at least two or three kids who love it and go on to read other books by Heinlein. In my own subversive way, I'm keeping him going unto the next generation.


I'm also proud to say that when Alex read Twilight, ordered to by his then girlfriend, his comment was, "Well, I can see why the girls like it, but it's one of the worst written books I've ever read." So there is hope.

I also want to say that part of the problem with the kids' reading these days is what we English teachers do to the kids when they do read. I try not to, but for the most part, the kids can't read for enjoyment. They have to disect the book, pull out vocabulary words, answer mountains of stupid questions, pull out the protagonist, antagonist, theme, symbols, keep journals about the book, write reaction paragraphs while reading the book, write letters to the characters, design book jackets, dress up like the characters, design cereal boxes based on the books...I'd hate every minute of it-and I love to read!

I have four daughters (currently 12, 10 and twins that are 9) and we've had 'bedtime reading' for years. Recently, having gone through the 'classic Oz' books (all the ones by Baum himself) I was casting around for 'what to read next'. I decided that, given the girls' love of space, adventure, and sci fi that I'd try Podkayne of Mars. They loved it, and we're now reading 'Door into Summer'. They ask questions about some of the phrases, but are never bored, or ever feel like it's either 'out of date' or 'unexciting'.

I mentioned this thread to the 10 year old, who aspires to be a writer and artist herself, as she said 'you tell them that his books ARE good for kids these days, but no one tells us about books like his!' She's on a mission to get her friends to read Podkayne, and came home very excited because Red Planet was in the school library.

In this day and age, I think more than anything else, that is what it takes. getting the kids exposed to it, engaged in it, because if they are (and they like it) they will become the biggest evangellists possible. It's in their nature.

Funnily enough, starting them on Podkayne, got ME started re-reading through my entire Heinlein collection, remembering how much I loved all of his books, and how much he meant (and still means) to me as a writer. It warms the cockles of my black jaded heart to have my daughters light up with excitement at the stories I loved.

Subversion! that's it!

Actually the tried but true (but really slow) way to get kids to read RAH (or anything) is to have the kids and them let them read it.

IMHO I have done more than my share of that, and age will not let me do any more. Right now the BIG hit in the ten year old set with the boys at school is the Lightning Thief novels. These are very loosely based on a Greek myths but could pass for SF/fantasy. They are not as bad as the Hardy Boys got. Interestingly, on a book report for a Patterson SF YA novel our ten year old just did, he noted that he really appreciated that the author "used science instead of magic for a change".

Our oldest became (and still is) a HUGE Orson Scott Card fan, but he's read enough RAH to be able to discuss him intelligently. He was CONSTANTLY in trouble as a kid in school for pointing out scientific errors to his teachers, btw. The second reads but mostly non-fiction at this point. AT least that she tells me about - she was not particularly into RAH as a teenager but certainly read him.

A quick unscientific survey (look in the 10 year old twin's beds - never an exercise for the faint of heart):

In addition to the toys, art projects, etc:

for the boy: Two Percy Jackson - Lightning Thief books, Have Spacesuit, an overdue library book called HIVE (Higher Institute of Villainous Education) and two Bionicle books. The Bionicle books are exactly as bad as you think they are. I suppose like most ten year olds he is not impressed by what adults think he should read.

The overdue library book just goes to show you that this is a genetic condition.....

The other ten year old has no RAH in her bed (at least today). She is the most promiscuous reader in the family (more so even than Jim). So a cursory search revealed two of her father's books about Egypt, one on religions around the world, an extremely battered Narnia, MY good copy of the The Fellowship of the Ring, a Calvin and Hobbes collection she is not supposed to read without prior approval (it makes them crazy) and oddly enough One Fish Two Fish.

They were read Starbeast as tiny little guys. I know at least James read Red Planet. Hard to say what Maureen has read - David is right - school makes reading unbelievably tedious and Maureen has been getting in (legitimate) trouble for reading too much in school for quite some time. It seems to be better now - either then teacher has given up or she has learned how to be subtle and at least not blatantly read everything she can find while the teacher is lecturing. There was a time when we searched her desk for books, though.

I think they are too young for Citizen and I know they are too young for SIASL and God help us the day Maureen finds out who she was REALLY named after... but that can wait. We know better than the tell them they are not allowed to read it as we are not ready for those questions yet.....

When I taught junior high I tried to sneak decent SF in to the curriculum as well. Now teachers are not allowed to pick ANY books at least in the public schools here.

So the question is not is it dated (Even Melville ca be entertaining if read with an adequate appreciation of the parody in Moby Dick), it is will it survive well enough to leave a philosophical impact on the next generation, as well as that generations' writers. (I think Scalzi was VERY influenced by RAH and I in fact DO agree with him most of the time, but I digress)

So how many kids do we need to have and raise to read this stuff to create a critical mass?

Thanks,

Audrey

Well, the most honest and accurate answer would be, "You won't understand some of the topics well enough to like it as much as you will when you're older," but good luck with that... might want to punctuate the response with, "Hey look! A bird!"

you DO know that telling a kid they are too young for something is like leading a moth to flame?????

We did our part - 6 here....

At the end of April the school where Idid my student teaching at did the yearly testing, NMSBA, my cooperating teacher and I brought in boxes of books for the students to pick through so they would have something to read when they finished. I had tossed in my paperback copies of several of Heinlein's juveniles along with the current YA darlings that the kids are reading these days. Only one of my students liked Heinlein. She read Podkayne and liked. She was also the only student that would ask for book recommendations. All the others would whine and whine about having to read. Turning a page does not provide them with the sensory gratification they are use to.

Rob

I’m going to take the subversive route and buy up a bunch of the juveniles at the next Friends of the Library sale and give them to a junior high English teacher friend. I’ll post her feedback.

My daughter is a reader. I told her she would never get in trouble (like I did) for reading “too much.” She read a couple of RAH and was not enthused. She said there was too much talking and cared not at all that the extent and style of the dialogue was part of what made them special. When she has children I’ll get another shot.